Indirect Cause......
Definition of "Indirectly" basically means: not direct: as deviating from a direct line or course, not directly aimed at or achieved.
Satan was direct while God observe with permission. This is what God said of His servant, Job. Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil."
Job suffered first set of trials
Job 2:3 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you persuaded me to harm him without cause."
Job suffered another set of trials
From the Book of Job, we see that God is in complete control. Satan had neither the power nor the authority to do anything without the permission of God. It was consistent with God's nature and will for him to have allowed those things to happen to Job.
I have studied Job for many years. Many people have a wrong concept of the Story of Job and didn't understand the theology behind the story. Job's friends acted like God's prophets sent to straighten out Job's life. They claimed to know more than Job did. Not all of their doctrines are false but they used their doctrines wrongly. Job didn't sinned and he was not opposing God but at the same time, Job was trying to understand why his trials were happening.
Timing of Job's sufferings In the beginning of Job, God didn't mentioned about punishing Job but rather praising Job for his faith. The very first verse explains that Job was blameless and a man of complete integrity. Job's faith was very strong and feared (loved) God.
In Chapter 3, most people believed Job sinned because he feared God which is untrue. Chapter 3 through chapter 10 chronicle Job's sorrow and he's really hurting. He's in pain, "O that my grief were thoroughly weighed and my calamity laid in the balances," chapter 6 verse 2. Chapter 10, he says, "My soul is weary of life." And he says in verse 2 of chapter 10, "God, do not condemn me, show me why You're contending with me." We ALL feel the same way, and don't tell me that none of you did not ever felt that way.
I never cease to be amazed at Christians who lack biblical knowledge regarding God's Character. We never said He was being mean, vindictive, uncaring, and evil but those who reply to our posts view us as those who THINK we believe such thing. The Lord has placed us in an environment with a certain supply of the gifts of His grace, and we didn't earn any of them. Everything we have, and everything we are able to obtain, comes as a result of the Grace of God; we have deserved nothing. Christians suffer for many reasons,sometimes through no fault of our own. "You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" ( Genesis 50:20). God has a purpose including illnesses. His purpose is to manifest the character of our spiritual life to everybody around us and to us as well. James 1:4 states that "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." Later in James 1:12 states "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to thoe who love him." God wants us to take joy over any of our circumstances (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18).
God allows and causes things to happen for for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 is not limited to "all suffering," "all trouble," "all good things," or "all righteousness." No matter what happens to me, it works out for God's purpose. Exodus 4:11 says: "The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ?" Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 3:14 "I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him."
Throughout the Bible, the following have caused by God as Amos 3:6 says "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?:"
If people think they view that way, why should we judge God? We are the clay and God is the potter. Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, so that the work of God might be displayed in our life. For God knows how we are formed, He remembers that we are dust, that He can turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay. Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"? I will NOT say that! Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made and we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. God is able to make all grace abound to us, so that in all things at all times, having all that we need, we will abound in every good work. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Because of the "unknown" of why is happening. Would you sit in Job's position and don't ask yourself that question? Job's friends planted fear and thoughts in Job's mind regarding what THEY THOUGHT what Job did to deserve this.
Job was asking the questions because if you read the previous verses of Job's friends (bad theologies). Job 4:7 - Eliphaz told Job "Stop and think! Does the innocent person perish? When has the upright person been destroyed?"
Job 5:6-9 - Eliphaz insisted, "Evil does not spring from the soil, and trouble does not spourt from the earth". Meaning if someone's life is messed up, then there is obviously a cause. After all, trouble doesn't come out of nowhere. We have found from experience that all this is true. Listen to my counsel, and apply it to yourself. My advice to you is this: Go to God and present your case to him. For he does great works too marvelous to understand. He performs miracles without number.
In Job 21:27, Job said, "Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me." In other words, "You know, I've had it with you guys. All you do is think what I lacked against God." And that their comments just proved that they didn't love him. “Oh, Job. You’ve got a lot of sin in your life. We know, we’ve got a good theology. Our theology is that if you’ve got problems, you’ve got sin.” Job's friends ran through weeks of his personal inventory and they came up with nothing.
God told Eliphaz in Job 42:7 "I am angry with you and with your two friends, for you have not been right in what you said about me, as my servant Job was".
Basically no one said anything until Job spoke in Chapter 3 that he didn't sinned and he was not opposing God's authority but at the same time, he was trying to understand why his trials were happening. If I was in position, I would say the same thing if I am unsure why things are happening (Job 3:25 "What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me.") I have seen many posts in CF people are asking "Why is this happening to me?". People will plant unrealistic reasons and theologies into a person mind to create fear and fault. Creating (Job's friends) fear magnifies the faults of those who are suffering (i.e. Job). Job passed because of his faith in God's character. In the Book of James, James wrote an example of Job to comfort the suffering, proving the point that God is merciful. James commended the endurance of Job (Jas. 5:11).
Job made a mistake of listening to his friends and God reminded Job of His Character in Job Chapters 40 and 41. In Job 42. "And Job answered the Lord and said, O, I see, I get it, You can do everything and no thought can be withheld from You and who's ever going to hide counsel without knowledge, therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, things too wonderful for me which I knew not."
Job is saying: "God, I understand, You're God, You're sovereign, You can do anything. You know everything. You have all the privileges. I'm a fool for even opening my mouth, I apologize. I've been talking about things far beyond my understanding which I knew not. Too awesome for me to understand. "
Worst case scenerio, fear of something would happen is always often in everyone's mind. That kind of fear is basically "pre-knowledge" of what may (or will) happen. Job had direct relationship with God so Job must have known that life will not always be perfect. Its not a negative response (as in worry) to God but rather Job's acknowledges that fear just happened.
In Job 4:4-5 Eliphaz said to Job, "Your words have supported those who stumbled; you have strengthened faltering knees. But now trouble comes to you, and you are discouraged; it strikes you, and you are dismayed."
Anyone can interpret what Job was saying in Job 3:25 but anyone can read the whole 42 chapters to get a full understanding of the Job's situation. People can play mind-games when there are other verses in Job that explained why.
"If" could mean anything when Job was trying to figure out and respond to his 3 friends. Remember, God said Job "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." (Job 1:8).
Speaking of self-righteous, Job's friends claimed to know more than Job did. Not all of their doctrines are false but they used their doctrines wrongly. Job's friends should not assume that they automatically knew what to do because they know that God is GOOD. Self-righteousness is terrible among Christian community because it is very naturally that we judge everyone by what/who we are because it is usually smug satisfaction with self.
When we go to court, a judge will ask "did you give permission to this person"....
a person will respond "yes"...
then the judge replied, "then you are in part responsible for this."
Acts 17:24-29 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill.
Proverbs 20:24 How can we understand the road we travel? It is the LORD who directs our steps. When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, a man cannot discover anything about his future. Eccl 7:14. In Proverbs 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.
Job searched in his heart and find any faults that he did to cause this. We all do that. Matthew 5:8 "God blesses those whose hearts are pure, for they will see God." We can use Job's example to search our own hearts and see what we have done. Our Christian practice (life) starts in our hearts. Our thoughts are the product of our thinking and it is not our thinking that shapes our character, but the Holy Spirit that leads our thoughts and shapes our character. Proverbs 4:23, it says "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." We are the temple of the living God (2 Corinthians 6:16), that God will search us and try us, and know our thoughts.(Psalm 139:23).
Between Chapters 4 and 39, Job's friends have said plenty.
God even said Job was justified.
Job's mistake was listening to his friends and responded in agreement with his friends. But, if you feel what you interpreted as you see it, that's between you and God. For listening and agreeing with his friends. If Job didn't listen to them, he would not have to repent. After listening to his friends for so long (20 plus chapters), in Job 21:27, Job said, "Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me." Job 42:7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. and in verse 8 "You have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has."
I am curious, have you sat down and really study the Book of Job?
God didn't say Job was perfect. God said the following:
"Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason." (Job 2:3)
Job was BLAMELESS until Job's friends messed that up for him by planting bad theologies in Job's mind. Listening to friends can be dangerous at times. Its pretty similar to listening to others in this forum.
We all can be blameless in our lives as Job did. Its the matter of our hearts, thoughts and action. God commanded is to be holy (actually blameless) because He is holy (1 Peter1:16 & Lev. 11:44,45). I should be seeking to KNOW God and HIS Will. I need to "take delight in the Lord, and He will give me my heart's desires" (Psalm 37:4). Jesus said in Matthew 6:21, "Wherever your treasure is, there your heart and thoughts will also be." (NLT) In Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." (NLT) In Proverbs 21:2, "People may think they are doing what is right, but the Lord examines the heart." (NLT)
Other translations said "blameless". Perfect in KJV means blameless. If you read the Bible, no one is perfect EXCEPT Christ.
From: Strong's # 08535
Hebrew Word: ~t (perfect)
Transliterated Word: tam
perfect, complete
complete, perfect
one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc
sound, wholesome
an ordinary, quiet sort of person
complete, morally innocent, having integrity
one who is morally and ethically pure
How do you interpret this?
(Job 1:12) "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands".
or this?
(Job 2:6) "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
God gave Satan (the “adversary”) permission to attack Job which to some refusing to acknowledge this deeply disturbing image! This whole issue of suffering is right at the heart of Christianity. The central image of Christianity, after all, is Jesus hanging on a cross. But the gospel message—the good news—is that through the power of God, suffering can be the doorway to redemption. God is in complete control. Satan had neither the power nor the authority to do anything without the permission of God. It was consistent with God’s nature and will for him to have allowed those things to happen to Job. The Lord’s point to Job, at the end of the book, is that he is the all-powerful Creator. He is the loving Sustainer. And he is the perfect Ruler. He created the Universe, and he knows how to govern it as well.
There are those who denies that God is able to control Satan. There are those who denies that Satan needs permission from God before taking action. If God cannot control Satan, then He is not God.
Job's faith is the issue and Satan wanted to prove to God that Job needs to be tested to show that Job do NOT have faith in God. God didn't mentioned about punishing Job but rather praising Job for his faith. The very first verse explains that Job was blameless and a man of complete integrity. Job's faith was very strong and feared (loved) God.
Job didn't sin and he didn't out out of Protection of anything he did. If he did anything, it was Job's FAITH that Satan had problems with. He hated the fact that people who have strong faith in God no matter what happens. Job is one great example.
Suffering is one of the leading causes of people turning to Christ for salvation. This is not about works, but about how God leads people to Christ.
Suffering also produces spiritual maturity as Christ talks about that He is the vine and we are His branches. Pruning requires some suffering.
We are free moral agents but at the same time the BIBLE did say:
Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; He directs it like a watercourse wherever He pleases.
Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.
In Acts 17, Luke said "From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us."
Show me something in the Bible that God do NOT direct us nor Satan. Other than your theories and reasonings based on interpretations.
God governs (controls) the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15-17), and us (Proverbs 16:9).
Resist the temptations to sin is NOT the same as resist tests of trials. I am to resist the temptation to sin but I unable to resist the trials we face daily. One of the beauties of having afflictions is that God has taught me through all the uncertainties in my life. The Scriptures clearly reveals that we can expect sufferings in this world. Christians have trials because we live in a sinful world
We are part of a fallen race Romans 3:10-23
We live in a world of turmoil and natural disasters.
We live in a world of crime, sickness, death Hebrews 9:27
Job was able to resist the temptation to sin but the scriptures clearly teaches that Job was unable to resist the trials. Joseph was unable to resist the trials. Corrie Ten Boom was not able to resist the trials of the Nazi camps. If they were able to resist the trials, many people would not be suffering today.
Proverbs 24:8
He who plots to do evil Will be called a schemer.
Ephesians 6:11
Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
Satan and pride often uses many ways to tempt Christians to fall into sin. "Watch and pray that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."--Matt. 26:41. Biblically, Christians are no longer "in the flesh": "You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him" (Rom 8:9). "If Christ is in us, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Romans 8:10). Through the Sword of the Spirit, we have the power to overcome any temptations and evil that we face in this world.
A Schemer is somone who is clever to achieve people from knowing Jesus Christ. Satan have many schemes to fool people into sinning against God. 1 Timothy 4:1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
One of Satan Schemes is to tempt Christians to CURSE God for their sufferings. Satan attempts to tempt us and trials to bring out the WORST in us (see: James 1:13,14).
I have posted in the past and I will post again.
Trials (of all kinds) are often a two-sided coin. One side trials may be viewd as coming from God to bring out the BEST in us (See: Gen. 22:1,2,15-18; Hebrews 11:17). On the other side of the coin, Satan attempts to tempt us and trials to bring out the WORST in us (see: James 1:13,14).
Trials themselves are not temptations to sin but trials are used to test Christians whether they remain FAITHFUL or CURSE God.
Isaiah 48:17 This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go. There are two worlds, set over against each other, dominated by two wills, the will of man (me) and the will of God, respectively.
If we read 1 Corinthians 3, through tests (trials), I can begin to forfeit my rewards and those things listed would be taken back off the list, added to the "wood, hay, and stubble" kind of thing, and your reward would be less.
Gold, silver, and costly stones. These are symbolic of good work. But it’s more than good. It’s eternal work, spiritual work. It’s work that is born of the Spirit of God, ordered by Him. It’s work that is born out of an abiding relationship with Christ.
Wood, hay, and straw. These are symbolic of inadequate work. Now that does not mean that it’s not perceived as good. It may look good, but in reality it was not good at all. That’s because it had its origin in the flesh. The Spirit of God never authorized it. It’s work that is not led by the Spirit, but is merely human effort to please God.
If what I have built survives, I will receive my reward; however, if it is burned up, I will suffer loss. I am still saved and I am sealed to enter into heaven regardless. Whatever I built spiritual during my human life, my rewards may escape through the flames. If my works passed the test and stand because they are true spiritual works of the Kingdom, then I will be rewarded according to my works.
Now if my works are consumed because they were works built on the flesh based on wrong spiritual motives, then I will suffer the loss of them, and there will be no reward.
So, my spiritual goals are to lay up treasure in heaven. I am going to focus on building on the foundation (Christ) with the right spiritual motives, that my spiritual work will be gold, silver, and costly stones. "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." (Gal. 6:9)
My focus is eternal rewards and blessings but at the same time I trust God for His decisions to give me anything that fits according to His PLANS. James 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
Regarding STRONG FAITH....We will be judged based on our works but not our salvation. . When the Lord looks, He sees all. He sees beyond the surface, even to the thoughts and intents of our heart. So perhaps this fire that will try our works is the all seeing eye of the Lord Himself. But in any case, the nature of our works will be revealed. And what is the outcome? What is the prize which awaits those who do Kingdom work? The nature of the spiritual work determines the reward or loss. Christian have a right to look upward and wait for the fulfillment of every promise. A faithful Christian will see to it that his/her anticipations conform to the revealed Word of God and he/she has nothing to doubt or fear in life or in death.
This kind of "works" is not related to salvation but rewards. Everyone who accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior are saved by Grace (no earned). God's Grace and Gift: Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Satan asked God, "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
God said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
God removed the hedge (protection). Why? Job didn't sin. So, there must be another reason.... let's think a minute.......
I got it...
Since God didn't mentioned about punishing Job but instead, praising Job for his faith. That's it. Job didn't sin at all. The very first verse explains that Job was blameless and a man of complete integrity. Job's faith was very strong and feared (loved) God. Satan wanted to test Job's faith in God. Test means to prove one’s character and integrity along with both the object and quality of one’s faith. Compare 1 Pet. 1:6-7 where the same Greek words are used along with the verb dokimazo which means, “put to the test,” “prove by testing as with gold.” Trials may become mirrors of reproof to reveal hidden areas of sin and weakness (Ps. 16:7; 119:67, 71). In James 1:2-4 and 1 Peter 1:6-7 the key word is “proof.” “Proof” is the word dokimion which looks at both the concept of testing which purifies, and the results, the proof that is left after the test.
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him." James 1:12
Every Christians who are spiritually well educated know where they stand on such matters as the inspiration of the Scriptures, the deity of Jesus Christ, salvation through the blood of atonement, death and judgment, heaven and hell. The true battle line is elsewhere outside Jesus Christ, the Church and the Bible. Psalm 145:19 He fulfills the desires of those who fear him; he hears their cry and saves them. Acts 4:24 "Sovereign Lord, you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them." Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? Psalm 103:19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.
Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 6:34 "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
We are to have faith in all trials, James 1:2 "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds" 1 Peter 1:6 "In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials." James 1:12 "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him."
posted by Jim | 8:06 PM
